Need some expert help!

A place to discuss matters related to Honda Helix scooters.

Need some expert help!

Postby kenyrider » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:11 am

95 Honda Helix. 23,000 miles, mostly mine.

For at least two years I've had a gremlin in this machine. It loses power, especially up a hill. Full throttle sometimes wont even get over 45, sometimes its 60... IT sounds like a blanket over the engine, (when it runs right its more hallow and throaty sounding). You can feel compression on the engine even after it slowly accelerates, way slower than it should. If it gets up to a decent speed (short of its general max of 70-72) you will feel like someone is stomping the back brake here and there, like its misfiring. It also when doing this is going through gas nearly twice as fast, likely as its just dumping it unsparked. when you let off the throttle, even at 25, it pops like a damn popcorn maker out the tailpipe.

The oddest thing about it, is other days you turn it on and its fine! sometimes mid crappy ride, it will just suddenly lurch and take off and run perfectly! no backfiring whatsoever, proper acceleration, top speed, sounds normal, like there was a pea stuck in a drinking straw and it finally clears. I am at my wits end with this thing.

As I'd gotten from advice here in the past, here is what I've done: all OEM parts from bike bandit, etc

Good gas, seafoam
got a rebuild kit for the carb from wincycles
cleaned and rebuilt carb, new jets, floats, seal
new autobystarter
replaced muffler seal and checked muffler for leaks-its fine
new ignition coil
my carb tubes, when hot, could be pulled off pretty easy even with clamps on so i replaced the tubing and clamps (actually ran worse that day)
new spark plug.
checked fuel filter.. can blow through it easily
no rust in gas tank
replaced the carbuerator insulator
replaced fuel pump
replaced air filter a while back (wasn't even really dirty)
i tried taking the plug out top of block to check the high side timing, it seemed to look right (cant imagine timing going in and out, would just be right or wrong)
ive had the air intake plastic on and off a million times.. nothing impeding, all looks ok.
cant see any arcing from anything electrical.
spark seems to be good. although i do notice with the vibration that the positive connection on the end of the ignition coil can come loose, but have made sure to push it on fully.

this clearly to most people sounds like a fuel or air issue. but ive replaced most everything there i can think of.
this issue is always the same.. its not like i fix one thing and then it causes something else. its always done the SAME THING. and then just fixes itself, sometimes mid ride! I can go home with it running great. then turn on next day and its CRAP!
Sometimes bumps in the road seem to affect it.
I've also noticed at times recently, if i only throttle halfway, let the bike slowly get up to speed way slower than it should, and back off the throttle a notch, it will correct itself and lurch forward and drive fine. some days that doesnt work. last saturday in colorado it was dry and 82 degrees and it ran perfect all day. even took it on the highway. next day back to crap. The funny thing is, it certainly hates rain and humidity.. that makes it run the worst, but while it loves cold morning dry air, and will run well(normal) at least halfway to work, then at the end of a day when its dry and not humid, but 100 degrees it will run great then too!
the only thing i can definitely tell, is it hates humidity or rain.

Does ANYBODY have any ideas what could be happening?

Thanks!
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Re: Need some expert help!

Postby GrahamH » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:39 am

Did you replace the HT lead and spark plug cap when you fitted the new coil? I had a Suzuki 2 stroke that hated wet weather and had to spray the HT lead/spark plug with WD40 to prevent misfiring.....sounds a little similar. Maybe when the problem occurs stop and give it a good spray to overcome the dampness.

Also check for electrical earths, clean and retighten any connections and if in doubt add an extra earthing wire, it can't do any harm.

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Re: Need some expert help!

Postby zozman » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:58 pm

This is the classic fuel delivery/drivability issue which plagues older bikes.

After rebuilding carburetors for years, sometimes I get a carburetor to rebuild and no matter what I do it just is difficult to get it tuned properly. I had a cold-blooded one like that once. I just replaced it with another I had in storage already rebuilt.

First, I would check the carburetor vacuum piston for pin hole leaks in the rubber sheath or sloppiness in upward travel possibly a bind. This may be contributing to your acceleration issue.

Next, look for vacuum leaks from the intake to the carburetor.

If those check out, I would replace your carburetor assembly with the Honda OEM Helix carburetor 16100-KFR-842, $233.11 (this appears to be $10 higher than last year!). This eliminates any parts overlooked on the rebuild or blocked carburetor passages issues not addressed.

Once you replace the carburetor and some or all of the issues still exist, then I'd look at replacing the CDI.

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Re: Need some expert help!

Postby millican » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:30 pm

zozman, I have a question about the OEM carburetor. (I wouldn't consider the knock-off units.) I've cleaned and rebuilt my carb a couple of times recently. It has a new bystarter, air cut-off valve (old one tested at 0psi!), gaskets, and that diaphragm piston. Getting that cover on while keeping that piston in place is pretty tricky, I must add. Buying one of those special screwdrivers and going through the idle-drop adjustment procedure helped, but I'm still having problems at highway speeds. It just cuts out and jerks a bit when you let off the throttle.

After all that: my question is this:
Does the new OEM carb come already mostly tuned? Do you still have to go through the idle-drop and enrichment adjustments with a new carb? Taking an engine apart is fine, but carbs I just can't get right. I have all the parts for another complete carb and might try putting that together and seeing what happens for poops and giggles, but I suspect I'll just need a new carb.
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Re: Need some expert help!

Postby zozman » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:42 am

The OEM Honda carburetors are tuned to specifications at the final assembly point and rarely need any adjustment.

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Re: Need some expert help!

Postby millican » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:18 am

Thanks!
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Re: Need some expert help!

Postby kenyrider » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:59 pm

Ugh. Ok i will check on that. One thing i absolutely noticed today going uphill, when i hit a bump it would misfire, no doubt about it now. Oddly, that was on the way to work when it was cold. Coming home today i had to run a few different places and had to shut it off four times, and each time it ran great after restart. It really does seem to be affected by bumps so I’m going to find and check the cdi. After reading another post on here about a guy talking about his being fine “if you pulled on it” and messing up otherwise. These scooters get a LOT of rattle and vibration, so it could make sense about the cdi thing misfiring when hitting bumps. I got this bike cheap enough and no payments. Combining the parts I’ve bought isn’t too bad, so if i had to drop 250 on the kelhien, that’s not so bad if it actually fixes it lol.
But i feel i oughtta check the cdi first given the rattle factor.

Thanks for the advice. I really love this bike and would like a few more years on it before i buy something bigger. I’ll chime in when i figure it out!!
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Re: Need some expert help!

Postby birdmannn101 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:20 am

I sent BLIPCO a CDI off of a 87 Helix I bought for parts with only 5000 miles on it and it fixed his start and running problems. I don't know what year your Helix is but be aware that 86 and 87's have different holes to plug in the wires (holes or squares). That CDI fixed his problems.
Last edited by birdmannn101 on Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Need some expert help!

Postby kenyrider » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:47 pm

OMG!! It’s the cdi. I’m nearly positive. I didn’t realize it’s this box in front of the battery, and guess what, when i had my wife holding the throttle up a bit but totally steady, while i tapped and smacked the box it changed the sound and rpms!

I’m buying one and will let ya know!
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Re: Need some expert help!

Postby Phil » Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:03 pm

kudos !!!!!
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Re: Need some expert help!

Postby kenyrider » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:02 pm

For crying out loud! I got the new cdi for 87 bucks new in package off eBay today. Looks identical except the terminals on original are to the right side and terminals on new one are to the left side. Ugh. No returns on electrical. The new one wouldn’t even turn it over. Old one says KS4 on the connector and new one says KPS. They have different values too. New one says CI760A G4.2 081F The old one is rubbed off partially but numbers start with CI61..... 4.something then 07something. It’s clearly not the right part though it looks just like it.
The part number on what i received from Honda is 30410-KPS- 901
Anybody know what the REAL part number should be? This is for a 1995 helix.

Oddly enough too, and I’m happy i do know FOR SURE what the problem is now... is that it may even just be the connector. There a four pin and a two pin connector on the cdi. It appears to be the two pin. I went to the store to see if they had any to cut and splice and he said maybe oreilly has them. He had no de-oxit spray, but he let me borrow a spray of just electrical cleaner into the connector and it drive home perfectly. Folks, two years of chasing parts be pulling hair may have just been solved by a free three cent spray of electrical cleaner!! (Or, perhaps one of the wires needs recrimped or spliced).
Don’t grow up to be me!
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Re: Need some expert help!

Postby Jim Caudill » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:07 am

According to Partzilla, the correct part number for the Ignition Control Module (CDI) is 30410-KS4-710. The cost is about $196 by the way.

https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda ... 81f005d455
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Re: Need some expert help! HERE WE ARE!

Postby zozman » Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:31 pm

Jim Caudill wrote:According to Partzilla, the correct part number for the Ignition Control Module (CDI) is 30410-KS4-710. The cost is about $196 by the way.

https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda ... 81f005d455
kenyrider wrote:For crying out loud! I got the new cdi for 87 bucks new in package off eBay today. Looks identical except the terminals on original are to the right side and terminals on new one are to the left side... Old one says KS4 on the connector and new one says KPS...The part number on what i received from Honda is 30410-KPS- 901...Anybody know what the REAL part number should be? This is for a 1995 helix...spray of just electrical cleaner into the connector and it drive home perfectly...


Jim Caudill has given you the correct part number. Your part number-30410-KPS- 901- belongs to the 2003-2019 Honda CRF230. FYI the middle 3 characters of the part number reflect the Honda model. The Helix and the Elite share components. The center three characters are KS4 for the Helix and KM1 for the Elite for most of the main components. Keep that in mind.

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